You can't make a decision based on the results.

At the time he killed the saviours he and the group hadn't been directly affected by them, and had no reason to go on the offensive other than to help their new friends in the Hilltop.

At the time, and even now, it was cold hearted and brutal murder.

 

No, he weren't. He should although digged deeper and researched more. But Saviours are clearly evil.

 

No he should've killed more but he had to spare some for next season.

 

No. I think you have to eliminate any potential threats. He cut Neagan's forces by a third

Rick's mistake was a lack of intel which led to a fog of war situation. He is not a field general and doesn't seem to be able to grasp logistics and enemy capabilities. I doubt Rick would have attacked if he knew there were 100 more of them out there and seemingly unified behind Neagan.

 

@Darylette

Killing Saviors in and of itself is not wrong, and is ultimately inevitable regardless - because of the nature of their totalitarian Genghis Khan style regime.

HOW TO DO IT - is where Rick blew it on every level. His failures in recon, in intel gathering, in laying out an offensive strategy were so bad, it has now cost everyone their freedom, it has cost them their firearms, it has cost them their medic Denise, it has cost them Carol (who is now emotionally fragile and has left), it has cost them 50% of ALL their material goods, and it has likely cost them Glenn.

 

Yes and no.

No, he wasn't wrong to do so because the stories from Hilltop and their previous encounter on the road with the group that ended up RPG'd proved this was a group that was basically merciless thugs. Their IO is to immediately kill someone in a community in order to cow them by fear, then demand supplies for protection from further death by their hands. It's a Mafia-style protection racket.

But he was definitely wrong to attack them as soon as he did, without gathering any sort of intelligence. Having someone spy on the group at the satellite compound would have been a good thought, along with maybe trying to capture one in order to interrogate later. Instead, they went in all half-cocked. When it happened, I turned to my husband and said this was going to backfire so, so badly for them. Awaken the sleeping giant. Stir up the ant-bed. That sort of thing.

And now it has. It's gone bad in the worst of ways.

 

You're leaving out the scene where Negan's men stopped Daryl, Abraham, and Sasha. They were about to kill Abraham for no reason at all. The main biker / Saviour in that group did emphasize that (a) the name of their leader is Negan, (b) they typically start a business relationship by killing one member of the opposing group so that they know they are serious, and (c) the people who do survive will give half of everything they own to Negan's group. The main biker / Saviour in that group said he changed his mind about letting all of them live, and was going to kill Abraham (or perhaps Sasha) a moment before Daryl blew him up with the rocket launcher.

You're also leaving out the scenes at Hilltop and everything they learn from Jesus and the Hilltop folks about how Negan's group operates.

So no, it wasn't as if Negan's group had never interacted with Rick's group or done anyone any harm. This causes Rick to basically declare war on Negan's group.

I'm not going to comment too much on the morality or amorality of killing someone in their sleep (or just generally unawares, like if you're a sniper taking someone out from a long distance who has no idea you're even present), if you are a soldier and they are an enemy soldier at wartime. There is at least a bit more background context to speak of than just calling it "cold hearted and brutal murder". Rick had reasons (good or bad), he isn't just some psycho who kills randomly or for enjoyment.

 

In my defence, I had forgotten about those scenes when I was writing what I did. I still don't think that it justifies declaring an all out war on another group, especially when the details on the other group were sketchy and came from a group they had just met and had a slightly adversarial position with. The leader of the Hilltop wasn't on the best of terms with them, right? I have little interest in watching episodes of season 6 again to find out.

They killed a lot of saviours, all kind of blurred into one, but which group of saviours was it that Negan sent after Rick for Daryl killing the initial batch?

I actually think I need to watch the whole lot again now.

 

They were about to kill one of Daryl's group to stop the rest from fighting. If they do it that way it's most likely because their experience to date is that it results in less deaths overall. I say, "overall" and not just "of Negan's people" given that Negan doesn't kill all of Rick's people when he has them in his grasp.

So you think Rick has reasons for what he does, but Negan doesn't? Didn't you just say he killed one person as leverage? We haven't heard of him slaughtering tons of people randomly or for enjoyment yet.

 

Negan's group are terrorists [or organized crime thugs, whichever you prefer], and Rick's group was just trying to preemptively stop them before they gained the advantage over ASZ. The best way to handle terrorists is to eliminate them before they can harm you.

 

I don't think he was wrong. The Saviors are simply far larger than any of them ever could have guessed. The biggest group that they've seen so far was probably Woodbury, and that was a total of I believe 73 people. And of those 73, only about half are fighters. The rest were kids, the elderly, and people with no combat experience. There were at least that many Saviors in the episode, and there are obviously still plenty of them back at their outposts and holding down the HQ. Rick should have taken the time to get to know his enemy before attacking. He underestimated the Saviors in a very huge way, but I don't think that necessarily makes him wrong for doing what he did.

 

It was definitely right to try to eliminate them, he just went about it in a tactically wrong way, because he didn't know enough about their size and structure.

 

When Rick went to Hilltop, what did he say? "We came for food, and we're going to get it." The implication is that if the Hilltop people don't cooperate, Rick will use violence to get his way. That's what a terrorist and organized crime thug does. The show is *trying* to make it look like there are similarities between the groups, don't you see that?

I mean seriously, IRL, if there was an apocalypse, you'd expect a gang like Negan's to show up at Hilltop, rape, murder, assault people, steal anything they wanted, drink anything they could find... and then talk. Here you have the most professional-acting group of bikers the world. They then show "the good guys" go and murder a whole compound of people they've never even met. In their sleep! - that didn't strike you as a bit odd?

 

Yeah, they are professional acting terrorists. So much better that they aren't rampaging ogres, and kill in a calm manner. They are terrorists who take half of every community's stuff they find, killing at least one person to make a point, and then killing further each time the communities can't meet their hefty supply demands. When you terrorize and kill everyone around you, you need to be eliminated, even if its in your sleep. Strikes one as no more odd than when a terrorist cell is bombed while they sleep.

 

It was meant to imply violence, but I don't know if that implication alone actually suggests that they would have done anything like that. We were meant to start seeing Rick's group as more morally questionable this season, but they've still never done anything like what the Saviors have done. The Saviors basically kill someone as a standard part of their introduction, and they take half of the resources from all of these different communities that they're tied to. Rick was making a threat, yes, but whether or not he'd have followed through on it is a different matter. I think that statement was largely meant to serve as 'motivation' or something along those lines. I seriously doubt that Rick's group would have just started using violence to take anything by force from Hilltop...but Rick fully planned on succeeding in his negotiations.

This is a bit different than coming in swinging a bat wrapped with barbed wire and killing someone to send a message, then leaving with half their shit.

 

lol, yes. Rick was just speaking out in frustration and making them realize they weren't going to be duped and make the trip for nothing. A bit different than widespread terrorism.

 

They said they were going to take half of everything Hilltop had, how much food did Rick take? Half. See the parallel? Rick didn't NEED anything else from Hilltop, or he would have taken that too.

You'll note Negan did NOT take their source of electricity, hence the doctor could still use his ultrasound on Maggie, and for that matter did not walk off with the ultrasound or the doctor. Kind of surprising for a group of "terrorists" to leave valuable stuff like a generator and a doctor (a surgeon no less) lying around isn't it? You seem to be so excited by the words terrorist and terrorize that you're missing the big picture.

And btw, Negan seems religiously attached to only killing one person per group. Rick's people have already killed 40+ members of Negan's group. If you are just concerned with the survival of the human race, you might see Rick as the bad guy - unless Negan has over 40 communities under his control, in which case he's more like the central government of the region than a terrorist.

 

If we really want to view the big picture, the survival of the human race, long term, is likely benefited by eliminating the people who use terror and murder as their lifestyle. They continue to kill in many different communities each time their hefty supply demand is not met. Get rid of the terrorist cell, and life can go on productively between all those communities. Working together will help the future of humanity, something that is stifled under Negan's terrorism.

 

I'm pretty sure Negan didn't take half of everything in Hilltop, why bother? Do you really need half of their rakes? Where do you store it all? What do you use it for? Better to say they'll take half of what they consider valuable. For example, they left the ultrasound machine. That's got to be nearly priceless in the ZA - IF you have a use for it, if you didn't, it's just more electronic junk. Did Hilltop have TWO of them and the Saviors took one? If not, they were selective in what they took, and they DID leave the community with valuables!

Rick would definitely have used force if there was no other way to get what he wanted. In the next scene he goes out and kills a bunch of people in their sleep to "protect" his people from someone they haven't even met yet. He thought the ASZ needed food or they were going to starve. Do you really think he'd watch Carl and Judith die of starvation if Hilltop said, "no trade for you"?