Negan does not control his men. His men's senseless brutality undermines the ! exclamation point brutality Negan is delivering. So, burning the mattresses -- beyond stupid and counterproductive. Beating up Aaron doubly so. Ne Shooting fire into Hilltop, opening the gates and sending a locked down car in with loud music to attract walkers so that's Negan's guys can "save" them -- beyond idiotic. Taking everything Rick and Aaron brought back instead of only half -idiotic.

Negan's model of empire building by slavery is about to collapse. The slaves cannot deliver because there is very little left to be scavenged and Negan has far to many associates to be supported by the slave colonies'i agricultural efforts. His men are so disgustingly abusive and evil, the outside slaves will have no sympathy when they get loose --- as we just saw with one sample, Darryl vs Fat Joey. And there appears to be an entire basement of new captives who certainly will rebel given the opportunity.

This sounds bizarre -- but for a while in the last episode, it almost seemed like Negan wanted a life of normality, that he did not want to kill and maim. Hence, he didn't kill Carl but enjoyed his company, didn't kill Rick and was not planning to. It's like Negan is the loneliest man in the world (as he deserves to be) and like -- maybe, just maybe, for a small instant, he saw a reprieve from the oppression of his own evil by being magnanimous at ASZ to not kill Carl or Rick -- and then Spencer screwed it all up. Rosita too, but his vengeance was less than it could have been.

 

Agreed. Negan really is a cartoon character; his personality is as thin as a sheet of paper. The hosts in WestWorld have more depth.

 

I'm not ignoring nuances. I don't see any. And there is a lot more to almost every character, they are not just one note. I have not seen any depth to Negan. He doesn't have a softer side he only shows to some people. He doesn't show a better face to his men in order to get and keep their loyalty. Even holding Judith was just a way to scare Carl.

 

Ohhh... what? You forgot to mention.... "Leans back all the time" See. He has layers. Because after he leans back, he has to lean forward. So really, you forgot two things. Two very important things he does.... A LOT. ;-)

On another note- I hate the whole "he used to be a school teacher" angle from the comics. He takes the word sociopath to a whole new level. Gym teachers typically don't fit that profile. Yeah- this world can change people, but Negan's behaviors were not something that just evolved. Those types of behaviors are something that takes a lifetime to master, and boy is he a master at it. Anything is possible I guess. I'd like to know more backstory. If they go with the school teacher story on the show, they are going to really need to sell how they get him from that to what he is now.

 

There's two types of nuances being discussed: nuances in leadership style and nuances in character. Negan may be able to exhibit the former, but I have yet to see the latter.

When the Khmer Rouge were plotting to take over Cambodia, they formed alliances with the Vietnamese communists and the deposed Prince Sihanouk. But once they got into power they showed their true character and turned the country into the Killing Fields.

 

I thought id hate negan but i love him, and I think he does the job well, though my suspension of disbelief is a bit much someitmes because some f it is just BS, it still works enough for me!

 

I don't see Negan as a lifelong good guy turned bad at the dawn of the zombapocalypse either.
Not even close, way I get Negan this guy's been practicing bad guy stuff all his life.
Negan's not just a good guy turned bad, he strikes me as through and through bad guy.
There's just no way someone can do the good guy thing for 20 or 30+ years, then one day zombapocalypse happens and blammo instant bad guy.

pneh

 

Right. Which is why I say- if they decide to go into backstory land with what he did pre-ZA, they better REALLY sell it if they go with the Welcome Back Kotter angle. Honestly, I don't think they're clever enough to pull off a believable situation where Negan played gym teacher in a past life. Based on how he behaves on the show, here's a list of past professions that could pass as plausible.... HSA/FBI/CIA or some other Federal intelligence gig. Union boss (lol). Lawyer (more lol). Sales manager (seriously- They can be persuasive and manipulative).

Basically, it's got to be something that fits other parts of his personality too. He seems to like having the "good life" and will do anything he can to maintain that. So maybe this was something he grew accustomed to over the years. Maybe he did shady things to get ahead back then as well.

 

I know Gimple says Negan is not a psychopath, but, Yes, he is.

Actually, neither Sociopath nor Psychopath is a diagnosis. They have been subsumed into Antisocial Personality Disorder. But I received my psych degree from UC back when the terms were used, and I still find the terms useful and decline to give them up.

This is an old list that was once used for sentencing psychopaths.

The Hare Psychopathy Checklist – Revised

GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM — The tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.

GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH — A grossly inflated view of one’s abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — An excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

PATHOLOGICAL LYING — Can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS — The use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one’s victims.

LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT — A lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, cold-hearted, and non-empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.

SHALLOW AFFECT — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY — A lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

PARASITIC LIFESTYLE — An intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS — Expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR — A variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS — A variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS — An inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

IMPULSIVITY — The occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.

IRRESPONSIBILITY — Repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS — A failure to accept responsibility for one’s actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS — A lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.

JUVENILE DELINQUENCY — Behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE — A revocation of probation or other conditional releases due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.

CRIMINAL VERSATILITY — A diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.

The word psychopath can be replaced with the word sociopath throughout this page. The meaning is very similar, if not the same.

http://www.sociopathicstyle.com/classic-sociopath/



And here is a summary of Antisocial Personality Disorder.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/antisocial-personality-disorder-symptoms/

Here are the first few paragraphs:

[FONT=&amp]Antisocial personality disorder is a disorder that is characterized by a long-standing pattern of disregard for other people’s rights, often crossing the line and violating those rights. A person with antisocial personality disorder (APD) often feels little or no empathy toward other people, and doesn’t see the problem in bending or breaking the law for their own needs or wants. The disorder usually begins in childhood or as a teen and continues into a person’s adult life.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Antisocial personality disorder is often referred to as psychopathy or sociopathy in popular culture. However, neither psychopathy nor sociopathy are recognized professional labels used for diagnosis.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]

​

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder frequently lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings of others. They may have an inflated and arrogant self-appraisal (e.g., feel that ordinary work is beneath them or lack a realistic concern about their current problems or their future) and may be excessively opinionated, self-assured, or cocky. They may display a glib, superficial charm and can be quite voluble and verbally facile (e.g., using technical terms or jargon that might impress someone who is unfamiliar with the topic).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Lack of empathy, inflated self-appraisal, and superficial charm are features that have been commonly included in traditional conceptions of psychopathy and may be particularly distinguishing of Antisocial Personality Disorder in prison or forensic settings where criminal, delinquent, or aggressive acts are likely to be nonspecific. These individuals may also be irresponsible and exploitative in their sexual relationships.[/FONT]

 

Yay! I'm glad it was just a misunderstanding of the terms, because, whew, Negan is an easy call for me. Then, again, Gimple says he isn't a psychopath, so go figure.

I don't have a strong opinion on the Governor. He deeply loved his daughter, and he genuinely connected with the little girls in the apartment. He sincerely wanted to protect the people in Woodbury and he wanted them to have a good life. He's just too far in my rear view mirror for me to call up enough memories clearly enough to have any useful thoughts on his nature. I guess I think it was the apocalypse that sent him over the cliff to the dark side, and not that his truest nature was having a chance to flourish. I dunno.

Definitely not psychotic, though. He wasn't seeing things or hearing things. He was solidly connected to the real world.

 

@Ionut - this article explains the difference between the 2. They have anti-social personality disorder in common. Psychopaths are thought to be "organic" (born that way); Sociopaths became that way due to upbringing. Some differences in how they present also.

However, in both Sociopaths and Psychopaths, you would be seeing signs of anti-social personality disorder prior to age 15. The ZA might make someone crazy from the stress, but an adult with a fully formed personality wouldn't "become" a psychopath or sociopath that late in life, so not sure how to explain the Governor or Negan without knowing how they were as kids/ teenagers.

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2015/02/12/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

 

I love that very last line here,"He was solidly connected to the real world".

Funny how this might effect or skew any known and accepted diagnosis if the world portrayed here were real?

Who is to say he isn't the only one connected solidly these days.

I had a Logic Professor that always said "It's all in your point of view".

 

Based on the professional distinction between psychopaths and sociopaths, Negan is a psychopath and the Govenour was a sociopath.

Check out this article:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201401/how-tell-sociopath-psychopath

 

I knew a Jedi master who talked that way too.

 

Speaking of Sociopathic/Psychopathic teachers, we had a horrific case in Los Angeles a few years ago:

Ex-teacher Mark Berndt, accused of feeding semen-laced cookies to L.A. students, reportedly to plead no contest
Ex-Teacher Sentenced to 25 Years in Prison After No Contest Plea in Sex Abuse Case

 

Less is more.